♪ Work Feels Theme ♪

Together 0:00

Hi. I'm Edda. I'm Ryan, and this is Work Feels.

Ryan 0:14

We would like to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians on the lands on which we work and live. And we pay our respects to Indigenous elders past and present. Sovereignty has never been ceded. It always was and always will be Aboriginal land.

0:34

♪ Work Feels Jingle ♪

Edda 0:35

So we are back for Episode Two.

Ryan 0:38

Here we are episode two, three years later [ Laughter ]. Alot's changed, even since episode one

Together 0:48

[ Laughter ]

Edda 0:49

Ah, we do apologise for the long waiting time. But we assure you that 2023 is a new year full of much opportunity and

Ryan 1:00

quality content

Edda 1:02

quality content. Exactly.

Ryan 1:04

So Edda what's happened between the first episode and January 2023?

Edda 1:12

Well, I think it was the day after we dropped the first episode, I went and had a baby. So now I have a little baby called Bryn and he's a real munchkin. And yeah, he takes up heaps of time, which is

Ryan 1:28

just like a podcast does.

Together 1:30

[ Laughter ]

Edda 1:33

Yeah, so it's been interesting to find time to pod and baby

Ryan 1:40

and take care of a newborn.

Together 1:42

[ Laughter ]

Ryan 1:43

Between the newborn and just myself just working my guts out as per usual, living the overtime dream. I've done the overtime, I've had my little Christmas break, I was flat out like a lizard on the beach.

Edda 1:59

[ Laughter ]

Ryan 1:59

I enjoyed myself, reset my brain in the sunshine a little bit.

Edda 2:04

As you lay as a lizard on the beach, I lay and watch my boobs droop further and further down with milk. Now my boobs are so full of milk that they nearly touched my belly button.

Ryan 2:20

This is the kind of information that you're gonna get listeners we're taking you on the journey with us, whilst we squeezed this podcast into our full time lives.

2:33

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Ryan 2:35

We've finally got this wonderful episode together that we are extremely excited to bring to you.

Edda 2:41

A little recap from where we left off. We are bringing this podcast into 2023 and we really want to base it around listener stories. We actually had a listener story reached out to us at the end of last year with her story which you will very shortly be able to listen to. But thank you to everyone else who wrote in completed the survey and sent us messages, even just messages of support. It means a lot to us, even though we really are only just getting started. Sometimes it takes a few of those messages just to keep up that momentum. So thanks for all the support so far.

Ryan 3:21

It does. Thank you everyone. It's been very heartwarming for just friends, family and even colleagues and some acquaintances and people that have said that they've loved the first episode and are super excited to listen to episode two.

3:38

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Edda 3:42

Our listener story is from Juju. This is a true story that took place very recently when Juju was working for a client in the hair and beauty industry. Juju takes us through the incident she experienced at work, how it was handled by her supervisor and reflects on some of the bigger picture systemic challenges

Juju 4:08

Hi, my name is Juju and this is my work story. One afternoon I submitted artwork for a flyer to be approved for print. On one side it had some information handy to the customer. And on the other side it had a lifestyle image of an Asian model standing on a beach wearing a suit. My supervisor returned the artwork to me requesting the image be changed and our conversation goes something like this... Me: what needs changing? Them: This image of this Asian girl needs to change. It's not Australian enough. Me: What does that mean? Them: I don't want the markets first impression of our brand to be associated with cheap and nasty products made in China. Me: Am I allowed to use an image of the African model we used? Or are you going to have that same comment? Are you wanting me to use an image of the white Australian model? Them: I don't have a problem with using Asian models, if it's in context. Me: what does that even mean? Them: it would be suitable to use an image with the Asian model if she's in a group of other women of other ethnicities and we're wanting to portray a diverse Australia. Me: this perception is what I'm trying to change. Them: The clothing doesn't look right, the setting and lighting isn't right. It just doesn't look right. The image needs changing. My supervisor returned to her desk. As a designer of over 10 years, it is not an unusual request to change imagery. Had I been told that the image needed to be changed because the image was too serious, too dark, too high fashion or not playful enough, I would have happily changed the image. I was left feeling really uncomfortable, confused and upset. It wasn't until my drive home from work that I realised how upset and why. They had made a racist statement. While it was not directed at me, and completely unintentional, it deeply affected me. I am a first generation Filipino Australian. And I've had to grow up in an Australian culture not welcoming to immigrants. I myself have experienced racism at all different levels. And I've heard the experiences of friends and family. It was on my drive home that I realised growing up in Australia meant that I had to lose my Filipino culture to fit in. And it didn't matter how much of my culture I had rejected, or the fact that I was born here, or how Aussie I sounded. I simply could not fit into this image of what an Australian should look like, with me looking the way that I do - Asian. I sobbed in the car on the way home with this realisation and when I got home sent my supervisor a message. 'Our conversation today was a very uncomfortable conversation for me, and made me quite upset. We need to have a face to face chat about this. But I need you to think about why. What you think people's first perception of seeing this image is, is the exact thing I'm working to change. I was told to look like me is not Australian enough. Today, I did not feel accepted as an Australian'. My supervisor replied with 'I'm sorry you feel that way. But I don't want people to think our products are made in China. It really is as simple as that. It doesn't mean she is not represented as Australian. But the market's perception is important. Happy to talk about it tomorrow. I'm really glad you said something though. I never want you to feel like you don't belong'. This response showed me that they didn't understand. And I was so upset I had to write all my thoughts and feelings down to bring up with them the next morning. The next morning, I arrived at work and my supervisor and I went straight into the boardroom to have our conversation. I was way too emotional to talk, so I had my supervisor read what I had written the previous night. "There's banter, there's our deeper conversations, and then there's yesterday's conversation. This isn't a simple issue. There are fundamental values here that are potentially misaligned with mine, making me question whether this is the right place for me. Asian model does not equal made in China. If I use an image of an African model, will people think our products are made in Africa? Are you worried that when your Asian sales rep is cold calling, people are going to think the products they're selling are cheap and made in China? How do you know that that's the market's perception. You've made a judgement on what consumers would think based on your own biases. Regardless, a statement like this isn't justified by 'that's what the market's perception is'. So is the priority then given to what the market's perception is for the sake of profit over a social issue like racism. So I'm only allowed to use an image of an Asian woman in context. For example, when we're talking about a diverse Australia, and she is in a group with other women when she's alone no? This issue around racism in Australia is not an issue I'm taking lightly. It has cost me the knowledge of my own culture". After reading this My supervisor apologised for hurting me, but not for what they had said, and then asked for my permission to share this experience with the rest of the team. I agreed, because I know that this is a really important lesson for the team to learn, especially since I was the only person of colour working there. Everyone who was present that day was called into the boardroom for a meeting. I was still too emotional to speak. So my supervisor led the meeting, beginning was telling everyone what had happened and sharing what I had written. My supervisor wanted to talk about what culture meant to the team. And this involved a whiteboard with a table drawn on it, listing various cultures, each with its own column. Culture by culture, the team was asked to call out words that they associated with the culture. The words that were written on the board were words like proud, arrogant, friendly, and harsh. We ended up with cultural descriptions like Germans are harsh. Americans are patriotic, and Australians are laid back. As a collective on this whiteboard. The team had built the stereotype for each culture. I thought at the end of this my supervisor would say to the team that we've just done a racist exercise. That did not happen. I was then asked how this conversation went. And still too emotional, I could only respond with good. I did not feel like it went good. But I didn't know how else to respond. I was the reason for this big meeting, where my all white team had to listen to and participate in a conversation on culture and race. I couldn't bring myself to tell everyone the whole thing had been a waste of time. The meeting ended and the rest of the day progressed like any other day. It wasn't until a week later that I was really hit with emotion. The thought of going to work and sitting across from my supervisor, knowing how they felt and still needing to act like everything was normal for me, made me physically ill. I had never felt anxiety like this before. It was a Monday morning and I messaged work saying that I was not going to make it in. I booked an appointment to see a doctor that day because I was really needing some mental health support. I was an absolute wreck. This doctor was able to refer me to psychologists and I was able to start sessions later that week. I also submitted a claim to work cover to get some compensation since the reason I was needing mental health support was from what had happened at work. I ended up resigning a couple of days later. I did say my reason for resigning was to spend some time with my daughter and to reconnect with my roots. This wasn't a complete lie. But my supervisor didn't feel like they had done anything wrong. And I wasn't going to argue with them about it. They also felt I was acting like a teenager having a tantrum, and that they needed to give me some time to calm down. I hope that from seeing how hurt I was there would be some proactive action taken so that's something like that wouldn't happen again. I did not feel this was a priority to them, and it needed to have some level of significance for me to feel comfortable to continue working there. I resigned for my emotional safety and mental health. A few weeks later, I learned that my WorkCover claim was rejected. Why? Because my supervisor denied having said anything racist.

13:50

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Ryan 13:54

A massive thank you to Juju for sharing her story. It's a straight up example of racism in the workplace and a situation that I'm sure many people find themselves in, in workplaces across Australia.

Edda 14:07

To unpack the themes that emerged in Juju's story, we reached out to Erfan Daliri, who is a social change consultant, and CEO of kind enterprises, and an incredible speaker and stand up poet Erfan has 20 years of professional experience in social change initiatives including participatory community development, First Nations advocacy, cross cultural communication, migration and settlement services, anti-racism training and consulting, systems thinking for social change and motivational speaking.

Ryan 14:44

On top of that, Erfan has a master's in communication for social change from the University of Queensland and is also the director of new kinds of social justice conference which recently took place in Melbourne and attracted rave reviews.

Edda 14:58

Get ready to sink your teeth into this interview that was really quite profound for Ryan and I. We were left thinking about this interview for days and weeks afterwards.

15:16

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Edda 15:17

Welcome, thank you so much Erfan for joining us today.

Erfan 15:21

My pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Edda 15:23

All right, to get started, can you tell us a little bit about your motivation to do the work that you do? And as some people say, what is your WHY or your purpose?

Erfan 15:34

Sure, absolutely. My motivation, I guess, this is an evolving thing. It's not a static thing. As a baseline, I have a just inherent low tolerance for what I would call unfairness or you know, injustice as a grown up word. But even as a child, I just didn't have the capacity to deal with someone being treated in a way that I didn't think was fair. So the only two fights, quote unquote, that I got into in primary and high school were where other people were being teased or bullied, and where I felt I had something I could do to help the situation. So I just can't stand to see anyone being treated unjustly. And that over the course of my life has evolved into a really fierce dedication to wanting to create the world that I think we all deserve living in. I don't think that the state of the world right now is a natural state, I think it's an unnatural state. I think that we haven't even scratched the surface of what human beings are capable of, and what we could achieve if we were to actually work together. So yeah, that kind of does break my heart - imagining what the world could look like and seeing where we are right now. And that gap that I recognise between the two really drives my motivation to try and close that gap between the current reality and perceived potential that I see in my mind's eye.

Edda 17:01

Yes. Well, thank you for the work that you do. It is inspiring.

Erfan 17:06

Thank you. My pleasure.

Ryan 17:08

And when it comes to, I guess, the world that we could be, if you relate that to workplaces in Australia right now, what are some of the main challenges you're seeing in workplaces? And why? What's the most common reason people reach out to you?

Erfan 17:27

Obviously, the prejudice along the lines of race and sex, so basically sexism, and racism. And there are a whole bunch of other layers of inequity that are embedded within workplaces that don't allow individuals to contribute to their fullest extent and to be their fullest selves. And that can have varying levels of degrees of impacts on people's lives. Whether it's not being able to be their full selves, or simply being a psychologically unsafe workplace, it depends on the workplace from one to another depends on the challenge as well, whether it's race, sex ability, neurodiversity, sexuality, we haven't quite yet resolved those basic level prejudices as much as we'd like to think we have. There still exists, some of the overt prejudice, like segregation and women not being allowed to enter the workforce or study certain things we've resolved. But we haven't really got to the root cause of underlying prejudices that exist that, you know, even gender roles, like the perceived gender constructs of men are inherently better than this. And women are inherently better that that's a prejudice. That's not an actual reality. It's something that we've carried forward from one generation to another, which is now still used as a justification to say, well, we've got more male engineers in our company because men are better at engineering. It's an absolute falsity. So those kinds of hangovers of prejudices of ages ago, are still persisting in the current workforce. And organisations, companies, countries and communities can't reach their full potential or function even properly if they can't resolve those basic level biases, prejudices, and micro and macro discriminations.

Edda 19:17

Yeah. So we've just heard Juju's work story which is a really clear example of racism in the workplace, and to kind of go to the root of that can we start with breaking down what the root of racism is, and does it share? Like is this is the root similar for other forms of discrimination, as you say, gender and sexuality, neurodiversity?

Erfan 19:47

Yes, and no. they do share some similarities in the way in which some things can function so sexism and racism are both built on a foundation of Power, and the exercise of power, the control of power. And prejudice is what justifies or drives it. So, the concentration of power within the hands of a specific sex is an age old thing that we are still trying to resolve. And that is the same thing with race. And that power isn't what we always think of when we think of power, we think of the, you know, the the leaders of society and CEOs, there are a myriad forms of power. And it can be as simple as influence, or it can be as simple as social capital, or it can be simple as having your ideas respected slightly more than someone else. That's a form of power as well. So power differentials is what's at the bottom of sexism, and racism. And then there are other layers of identity and, in the person's lived experience, that also create additional discrimination. ie ability and a workplace that may or may not be fit to serve the needs of people with differing abilities. That's not necessarily a power play, but because of differing amounts of power in people's hands to determine how the workplace is designed, or how the building is built, then they're not even aware of how their influence, quote unquote, power is causing discrimination for someone else inadvertently.

Ryan 21:29

And I think that that power, too, is just directly linked to control. So that certain groups of people have control over other groups of people, which I think is just like since almost since like the dawn of time, as far back in history as you go, you can see that certain people have the power, and therefore they hold the control.

Erfan 21:50

Totally. Yeah. And sometimes it's power and control over other people overtly. And sometimes it's power and control over decision making processes that then impact the lives of other people.

Ryan 22:01

Yeah, like systematic stuff.

Erfan 22:03

Yeah. So, on one extreme, it's slavery, Stolen Generation colonisation. On the other hand, it's the power to design policy, or design a building, or design, you know, a job description, you know, who determines what you're looking forward to fill a decision, that's still power over because it determines who gets the job.

Edda 22:25

Yeah. And it's so hard to essentially break that cycle in a way because you need representation in these positions of power. And when it just continues in cycle after cycle, where there's certain people that are aren't led into these positions, they aren't even physically lead into buildings, you know, in terms of accessibility.

Erfan 22:51

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Ryan 22:53

In terms of the power structures, so through putting together this episode, Edda and, I guess that some of the key terms that we keep coming over would be white power structures, capitalism and a white lens. Can you help us and the audience kind of break these down and how they're interconnected?

Erfan 23:15

Sure. I think the two that you mentioned first, white power structures and capitalism, are closely related. The white lens we can potentially unpack in a follow up question. Those two definitely, white power structures and capitalism are hand in hand and in fact, to a degree, the same thing. So the current disparities that we see in access representation, economic power, and political power, whether it's on a national level, or global level, are all outcomes of 500 year old ideas of cultural superiority of the European race. So the idea of race was created 400 years ago. And Europeans then justified their exercise of power over the people, because they had guns and cannons and ships and they could. So they justified that with race, and through that they then colonised almost the entirety of the planet. They enslaved West African people, they stole children from their parents here in Australia, and that access to the planet, and its resources and the lands and the exercise of power over other people, is what's now created the quote unquote, power structures of modern society. So if you want to try and have a conversation at cop 27 or cop 28 or cop 48, you can't have a proper consultative process, if not everyone in the room is given the same amount of influence into the conversation.

Edda 24:50

So do we need to dismantle capitalism to achieve social justice? Or is it possible to keep capitalism and achieve social justice?

Erfan 25:03

Good question...

Together 25:05

[ Laugher ]

Edda 25:09

We have too many questions that I'm already squeezed for it.

Erfan 25:12

I love it. I love it

Edda 25:12

I'm sorry [ Laughter ]

Erfan 25:14

I love that question, because to me, the answer is very short but it's I laugh because it's such a point that people want to try and debate one way or another. But to me, the short and fast answer is capitalism is the cause of social injustice in the planet. You can't use the cause of social injustice on the planet, to then resolve issues of social justice. Yeah, it's, it's the literal foundation of all of it.

Edda 25:40

Great. So we have it clear, plain and simple. We must dismantle capitalism, like this is like, this is really clear.

Erfan 25:49

Okay, so what I would where I would disagree is in the approach to resolving the situation. Okay. So the word dismantle immediately triggers, like the majority of the Western world. And even the process of dismantling something is arduous. Like if I've got something that's not working, I don't necessarily even need to worry about that thing. Because it's that bad. We actually need solutions more than we need dismantling of something else. So okay, that's what really excites me at the press about the process of social change. Is that Yes, to a degree, we need to acknowledge that capitalism is a problem. But we need to exert as much energy on well, what are the other forms of governance and economic systems, hand in hand that we can use to find our way out of this hole we've dug ourselves in with capitalism? Which as you know, we had some of those conversations that Newkind, like circular economy and ecological economics and other forms of governance and consultation. So I would avoid the words dismantle capitalism and I would probably focus more on what would a post capitalist or post growth world look like? And how could we, you know, establish a system of trade and business and commerce that doesn't continue to concentrate wealth, thereby concentrating power?

Edda 27:12

Okay, so to bring the conversation back into the workplace and referencing the white lens, which she said is separate from white power structures in capitalism. And the white lens came up many times that at the new kind of conference, and it's a word that actually I Googled today, and I got results of white contact lenses. And also, Canon does a white lens. So I couldn't really find anything that came off the back of a simple Google search around the white lens. But it's something that, you know, it's something we're starting to recognise and starting to feel, can you help us break down what is this white lens? And how does it manifest in the workplace?

Erfan 28:08

Absolutely. So the reason why we don't see much of it out there is largely because of the previous question: white power structures andda dd capitalism.

[ Laughter ]

Edda 28:19

So we need to send a letter to Google and get that rectified.

Erfan 28:23

So we're talking Google, we're talking publishing companies, we're talking academia, we're talking r Western media, we're talking Western politics. There's a whole system that controls what is published, what is not published, what is platformed, what is not platformed, what is agreed with what it's not agreed with. Which is why some things take so much effort. So the white lens, is, it's a strange thing that we need to talk about this. This is why it's so absurd to people like myself and, and others who have had to partially assimilate into a Western settler colonial society as a non white person is because we are fully aware that each one of us looks at the world and lives in the world through a particular lens: our cultural lens, which is influenced by ethnicity, our religion, our family and upbringing, and we kind of all understand that we think differently from other people, and that's influenced by our culture. But because of what we call the supposed normativity of whiteness or white normativity as if whiteness is the objective, neutral, natural, you know, unbiased perspective, we have somehow the world has somehow convinced itself that white people don't have a cultural perspective. It's like, no, no, that's just my perspective. You're the one with a cultural perspective, thereby reasserting white power by saying, I don't have an alternative perspective. I've got the mainstream position here. And you are the one with a cultural perspective. So that's part of unpacking what the white lens is talking about. The other thing is because of the concentration of wealth power and the control of much of the planet's media, everything is looked at through that white lens. So whether it's the imagery of black men, and the supposedly violence of black men or the sexualization of black women, for example, or whether it's the solutions to how to solve the aged care sector crises, or how to fix the climate change crisis, this is all done through the white lens, because we have assumed that this is neutral and objective and forgotten that actually, it's a cultural lens. And we need to recognise that so that we can finally have consultations, where everyone's perspective is given equal weight, so to speak, and evolve all of our cultures to a point where we have a unified global vision of the planet, and a unified cultural perspective, so to speak, of how we can solve our problems. Until we address power structures, we can't have fair conversations and consultations.

Ryan 31:05

And I guess the white lens perspective has become so widespread through every single kind of power structure and every media source and it almost circums, well, to white people, it almost becomes invisible, because it's just becomes the default. It's everything that you see, it's everything that you hear.

Juju 31:30

Absolutely. And that's the thing. That's how a worldview works, right? Your worldview is like a set of contact lenses, it's so close to your brain and eyes; you cant see your worldview. Yeah, the only time you can actually see your worldview, is if you are in a position where you are forced to navigate another worldview that is dominant over your worldview, and you have to assimilate into that worldview. And as Western white settler colonial people, you've never had to navigate someone else's worldview in a meaningful way. At most, you've spent six months in another country. And even then, because of global white power, you've been treated with respect and difference. Whereas as a migrant to Australia, even as at the age of one, whether you've been here one year or 40 years, we understand our cultural perspective, and we understand the dominant power structures, cultural perspective, and we code switch every day of our lives.

Edda 32:28

Yes, and just for anyone who doesn't understand code switching, can you just give us a quick definition of what does code switching mean?

Erfan 32:37

Yeah, it just means switching from one cultural perspective, instead of behaviours, and language and vernacular to another. So to a degree, many people do this, you might code switch between how you speak with your friends to how you behave at the home. Some people might not, but some people certainly do. So code switching is putting on a certain cultural clothing to fit into a certain space and then taking that off and putting on another set of cultural clothing because that's what you're more comfortable with.

Edda 33:09

Yeah. Which would be happening at workplaces around the world every day of the week.

Ryan 33:17

And it often becomes very exhausting though. The only thing I could speak to on that is code switching with your sexuality to have to go into an environment where I was like, oh, I better not let anyone know that I'm gay because I could be in danger, I could lose my job, you know?

Erfan 33:33

Exactly, there are risks to it, right? There are repercussions to it, exactly. So there's many layers of code switching and then some people don't have the benefit of pretending like they're not black, or, brown, or Asian. And some people are managing multiple layers of code switching. So even as a black or brown person, they may also be a woman of colour, there may also be queer women of colour with a disability. So there'll be some codes that can switch some codes that can't switch.

Ryan 34:04

Leading on from the white lens topic, I guess that is quite closely linked to unconscious bias. So when you're providing training for workplaces to start to be able to see this bias? What are some of the tactics that you use? Or how do you how do you frame that when you try and make people see that contact lens that is so close to their eye, you know that they can't say it?

Erfan 34:32

So with unconscious bias, it's a bit different to how a worldview work. So a worldview is the basic set of rules and codes and behaviours that you function with and you assume that these are my normal behaviours. Unconscious bias, in order to understand that, usually what I would start with is some basic, you know, brain neurology, science stuff to explain how unconscious bias actually forms, which is similar to a degree to how culture forms. And it's basically, one of the things that sets human beings apart from the rest of the animal kingdom is that we are really, really, really good at pattern recognition, which is what has allowed us to build agriculture and civilization and arts and, you know, navigate through the stars and work out the seasons, we understand recognise patterns, and we then make assumptions on them and we and we do better. But that ability to recognise a pattern and make assumptions from it, is something that's now leading to our downfall because the patterns we are now seeing are not naturally forming patterns from our natural environment. They are the patterns that are given to us through the white controlled Western media that educates most of the planet. So every advertisement, you've seen every book, you've read, every film you've watched, every piece of media content you've consumed, whether it's a children's books, a comic book, or a textbook, repeats to a certain narratives. Certain characters are played by certain types of people and certain types of people are constantly portrayed in certain types of ways. Now, our brain can't tell the difference between what you're watching in a movie, and what is actual reality. So the people who are creating these images are responsible for forming unconscious bias in our brains. And as you know, in brain science, synapses that fire together, wire together. So any thought behavioural pattern that's repeated, becomes hardwired into our brain. So if I constantly see images of black men, and they are being portrayed as apparently being violent, over and over and over again, every single film that I see, then that becomes hardwired into my brain. So you can imagine how many prejudices people are carrying around unconsciously in their brains, just because of the content they've seen. And it's got nothing to do with how our hearts work. It's more to do with how our brains work and that's why unconscious bias can often go exactly opposite or contrary to what we actually believe in our hearts. That's what makes it much more challenging to resolve. So we can't train people in a couple of hours, or six or 10 hours, even how to not have unconscious bias it's simply impossible, because that's taken several decades to build up. What we can do, and we don't have time and scope for in this call, is the layout strategies of how to mitigate unconscious bias and its influence by design. So you design processes in the workplace, that mitigate the impacts of bias, by design, rather than relying on an individual to literally rewire their brain in two hours, which is not possible.

Edda 37:33

It also makes me think about auditing the material that I'm taking in everyday. Auditing, the authors of my books, the directors of my movies, the people that I follow on social media, to almost break that sort of white cycle of just eating up white media and white narrators, white authors, etc. And then maybe over the next decade or two, to almost try and undo all of that. White lensing or unconscious bias, I should say.

Erfan 38:15

Absolutely, and while we've got neuroplasticity, and our brains are still agile, we should do as quick as we can. And I think to help the listeners to work out where to start, there's two documentaries that I would recommend. One is black Hollywood, got to have us. It's a UK documentary, black Hollywood. And the other one that I'm actually halfway through watching it's I've only just recently come across it is, is that black enough for you? Which is a history history of of black film, and media and how black people have been portrayed in film and how black people have created film. And this dance between the two and how the image of blackness has been influenced so much by the Western world and Western media makers.

Edda 39:00

Well, we'll make sure we put those links in the show notes as well.

Ryan 39:06

And when you say that, it just popped into my mind, which I've definitely pulled myself up on a little bit is realising that you're, particularly with technology, that you can kind of find yourself in an echo chamber with just people that talk like you, look like you, do the same things as you and, you can still have, some good conversations and, progressive conversations, but it is limited when you are just surrounded by pretty much the exact same people, whether it's digital or physical, but more so that it's digital these days.

Erfan 39:45

Yeah, absolutely. So that digital space has accelerated that process of confirmation bias. We used to have a circle of friends that we talked to, and they would confirm our biases and we would generally think the same way which is why we're friends in the first place, which creates confirmation bias. But now the digital digital world has put that on steroids, everything you click on on Facebook or YouTube or Spotify, the algorithms are so strong that you keep getting the same things that you clicked on, and you keep missing the things you once scrolled past?

Ryan 40:17

And you're literally playing surrounded by 1000s of people, if not 10s of 1000s of people across your networks, and if you're not conscious of that, it ends up being this enormous echo chamber that you're almost unconscious to.

Erfan 40:34

And it's not always so I've overtly racist and prejudiced, its sometimes they're really subtle. If we're constantly surrounded by people who look like us, think like us, whose parents cultural background ethnicity exactly like us, we sometimes say really silly things like, we wouldn't look to learn from our indigenous people. Just that sentence alone, is something that some people will pick up on and some people won't pick up on. The word 'our' is really grating.

Edda 41:02

Ownership

Erfan 41:03

Yes, it comes from a place of superiority. They're not your first nations people. They are sovereign peoples. But some older Australians particularly continue to say our First Nations as if they're a piece of property its own. Whereas you'd never say anything like that about a European person. There was aother incident recently about, when we had the shortage of truck drivers in Australia. One of our allies, quote, unquote, in a feminist space, tweeted to the 10s of 1000s of followers, we should let the refugees out of the tension so they can fill the truck driver shortage. And that person didn't think there's anything wrong with that. I'm like, these people are doctors, lawyers, engineers, and journalists, and you just said, we should let them out so they can drive out trucks. And there's nothing wrong with being a truck driver, but the implication that our engineers and doctors because of the colour of their skin, should drive trucks for us. And that's what happens when we've got echo chambers.

Ryan 42:07

And using, broad brush strokes to just stereotype an entire black monolith of people that are

Erfan 42:13

Yeah, that's just never met.

Edda 42:20

So, one thing that came up, I'm gonna reference the conference again, because this conference was phenomenal. So I was blown away by...

Erfan 42:30

Why conference was that?

Edda 42:31

Oh sorry, new kind conference, everyone get your ticket to 2023.

Together 42:35

[ Laughter ]

Edda 42:38

So what I mean, every panel was incredible. But one panel really captivated me, which was the Work and Employment panel. And you mentioned something on the panel, which really got me thinking, which, essentially, like when it comes to the push for diversity and inclusion in the workplace, the narrative and motivation is always about how diverse teams perform better. But when you break that down, diverse teams who perform better lead to companies that will then make more money, which usually makes white people more rich and preserves white power structures in the workplace, and this whole system is self serving. And, it's essentially about money. And to take it one step further, I highly doubt that there would be this drive for diversity if teams weren't as profitable slash productive because of it. What are your thoughts on this?

Erfan 43:41

Yeah, great question. Big question. It speaks to alot of things. And I could go any which way of 10 directions from this point, because there's so much to unpack there. And you are right. It's unfortunate. And I think what I was saying on the panel was that it's actually heartbreaking that even this stage of the game 500 years of racism, we still have to sell it to people, as if 'we bring value to your company so please hire us'. I'm so sick and tired of that condescension and patronising approach to why we need diversity. So there's that element of it and then there's the aspect which you just touched on, which is if we're constantly selling them diversity and inclusion, through the lens of increased product, profits and productivity and engagement, then it does create an economic benefit to the business: it increases engagement, it improves attraction, recruitment and retention, and a whole range of other things which makes the organisation more efficient. But, also the mere presence of diversity can begin shifting the culture of organisations. And make organisations more intelligent, and potentially because each person comes with their own specific cultural lens, not everyone thing thinks the same way, capitalism doesn't come as naturally to certain cultural worldviews, certainly not to First Nations people, some people culturally are more inclined to social enterprise and collectivism. Right? So, that's another way of looking at it is that you could shift the culture of an organisation to become more socially conscious, to become more regenerative or to become more equitable, and to even question the very fundamentals of their business model. If you allow different perspectives to contribute in decision making places, not just hire them for your lower level interns, allow diversity to flourish up the food chain, to places of senior management and decision making. Trying to adjust or dismantle capitalism is not the only way to create change, and alternatives are already popping up naturally. It's like it's an ecosystem. Any ecosystem that is under stress or strain, will begin designing and creating new species to help adjust the pressure and to make the ecosystem more healthy. So right now, the social enterprise space, the not for profit space, the crowdfunding space, the way we can start social movements through social media so quickly, these are all natural, social phenomena that are popping up out of our ecosystem that are also able to create change. For as long as we will want to hold on to a toxic power structure like capitalism, and try to affect change through it, that's fine. I'm not going to tell anybody who's working in an organisation that's built on capitalist assumptions to not try to create change in their organisation. Absolutely not, they should, and I'm more than happy to help them because at the moment, that's where much of the power lies. But at the same time, it's not not the only place to create change. And I think the representation of diverse peoples, diverse cultures, diverse abilities and genders, in all spaces of society - in the government sector, and corporate sector in the third sector, the NGO space and social enterprise space, and climate consultations, and the United Nations, in all of these spaces, we need to have diversity and proper representation. And if we so happen to work in an organisation that is 'purely capitalistic', we can still create change, they're also

Ryan 47:26

That just made me think, do you see a way for making change as trying to get them to broaden their approach in terms of how they're doing things? And enter these spaces and try these other ways of doing business, of taking on some non-for-profit? or social enterprise? Or rather than that just existing completely separately to a fundamentally capitalist organisation, is there a way that these organisations can start to branch and broaden into these other forms of doing business and other forms of economies?

Erfan 48:17

Totally, of course, we've just got to keep an eye on the fact that sometimes branching off into these spaces is used as a ploy or a branding exercise to help draw more business to them as well.

Yes. It can become tokenistic.

And it helps the business actually conduct more business. I think it's important also to delineate for the listeners that capitalism doesn't mean commerce or business. Commerce and business can absolutely absolutely necessary functions of life. Everything on this planet exists within a function. Your your body, right requires the flow of blood to transfer resources from one part of the body to the other. That's what an economy is. An economy, the transfer and flow of water, or blood or money facilitates life. So commerce and business is not what we're talking about capitalism is a bunch of other principles like the privatisation of the commons. The privatisation of basic human requirements, like education, health care, water companies, the fact that we've got CEOs questioning whether water is a basic human right - that tells you how far capitalism has gone. Trying to capitalise on literally anything that can be profited on. And then there's the other things like the concentration of wealth. In the last few years, we've had more people buy their fourth, fifth, sixth and seventh homes than we have had buying their first homes. So that extension of the gap between the rich and poor is something else that's facilitated by capitalism. It doesn't mean business is bad, business needs to happen. We need to have the flow of commerce and energy and resources. We just got to do it in a way that doesn't concentrate it in one part of the population. That's the only problem.

Edda 50:10

All right, shall we switch gears and move in to action tips?

Erfan 50:17

Okay, sure.

Edda 50:19

This is all about takeaways where people can take sort of tangible ideas or insights into their workplace.

Ryan 50:30

So obviously, a lot of these topics are enormous topics that you could go down any form of rabbit hole on in talking about. But we did mention the term and I've actually never really heard of the term until Edda told me a while ago now, but psychological safety. I think a lot of people who aren't into the psychology space may not know this terms, so can you sort of break down what psychological safety is, and how you see that being applied in a workplace context.

Erfan 51:09

I'll start by saying that psychological safety allows people to be able to actually speak their mind and be their full selves, and not be acting with the fear of repercussions and retaliation simply for being their full selves. A lot of workplaces as much as I like to think 'racism doesn't exist here', psychological safety doesn't exist either for a lot of these places. And an example to help highlight what we're talking about here is that we recently, at kind enterprises, did a survey of our several 100 webinar participants, and asked the question, how many of you recognise or how many of you would say that raising an issue of racism in the workplace is a risk to your career. And 78% said, Yes, it is a risk to my career - simply to raise an issue of racism in the workplace. That is not a psychologically safe society. That as a society that understands inherently, that if racism exists in my workplace, I'm better off not saying anything about it than trying to raise that issue with HR, because my career is potentially at risk simply by wanting to talk about it. And there is so much evidence to highlight this point and prove it because there are a plethora of people who have tried to create change, and Juju, is one of them, and she now works for us, because she tried to address an issue of racism. And the response oftentimes isn't as kind, compassionate or positive as we would like to think. So oftentimes, people will go through work understanding where the invisible cliff edges ares, and go 'don't step too close to that'.

Ryan 53:04

Particularly with anything to do with race, I think it's something that people are shit scared of even mentioning the term or the word. Do you think that's really something that we've kind of just got to get over and it actually needs to be spoken about a lot more, and it needs to be approached from a different way?

Erfan 53:23

Absolutely. We can't not use the word race, when we've spent 500 years building a society based on the lines of race. W can't not talk about it now. It's like, why are you making everything about race? Well because for 500 years, everything was about race. We've only just started the beginnings of this conversation after the end of World War Two, when Europeans scientists saw the horrors of what racism and ethnic cleansing can do to Europe. When I began to impact in Europe, UNESCO finally put out the report The Race Question in 1950. And the scientists, just like the IPCC reports, came together and they said that race is a social construct. It's not real, it's not scientifically grounded, and we need to do away with it. And that's what in fact, fueled and empowered the first civil rights movements across Australia and the US and all over the world - was that the scientific community of Europe finally came together. So we've only just started talking about race. For the rest of the time, we were acting along the lines of race. So that is definitely a part of being able to create psychological safety, both for those who don't want to talk about race and for those who do want to talk about race; and that's a big part of what we do at Khan enterprises is making sure that we acknowledge the 'tricky feelings' they come up for people, when we want to talk about race: the defensiveness, the guilt, the shame, the nerves, the anxiety. Recognise that, let's talk about that. Let's unpack that. Why is that coming happening for you? Only then, can we actually have effective conversations about race and racism, where people feel uncomfortable enough to learn, but safe enough to actually grow.

Ryan 55:04

Yeah. We're now at a point where I would like to think most people know that it's a very bad thing to be racist and to do racist behaviours or say racist things. But now we need to know how to start, as you say, unpacking it and talking about it and not being so scared of the conversation. Because if we're scared of it, and we don't say anything or do anything, then the progress kind of stops - we can't continue.

Erfan 55:44

And you know what's even more powerful than the saying the doing of racist stuff? Yhe thinking of racism. That's what we don't talk about. And everyone wants to focus on someone said something racist, or they did something racist, but it's not often that that happens in our workplace. It's the racist thinking we need to address and that happens every day of the week. And if anyone's listening, thinking, have I possibly thought something racist in the last week? I assure you, 100%, you have? It's inevitable. It's not possible to have not had a racist thought because we are conditioned to have certain preferences, biases or ideas that we've developed through the media and the content we've consumed. So we need to talk about what a racist idea is, and how we can address racist thinking rather than just the saying or the doing because most poeple can keep their behaviours in check in the workplace, but it's the subtle things, we've got to talk about the subtleties of it, and how pervasive it can be and have a nuanced understanding of race. Only then can we have psychologically safe workplaces, where microaggressions don't happen where people don't have to swallow their pride, just because they need to keep their job and not talk about race. So once we address the psychological safety issue, that's when people can actually be a part of your organisation until that point, they're just doing the bare minimum, to earn their wage and to keep the business alive. People can't contribute fully until they are safe enough to say, 'I have experienced an incident of sexual harassment, and I feel safe enough to raise that with HR'. Women all over the planet will tell you that they don't genuinely feel safe enough to mention smaller incidents of sexual innuendo's, inappropriate jokes, a slight hand on the lower back when a male colleague is talking to them because raising those issues, as inappropriate as they are, does your career no good. Right? There are risks and repercussions for saying "hey, Thomas, Timothy over here, keeps putting his hand on my lower back on my shoulder when he speaks to me. And I find that slightly inappropriate". That shouldn't be happening and no one should feel unsafe talking about that. But the fact of the matter is, a lot of these incidents of sexism and racism don't get reported because the cost-to-benefit ratio is not there for the person experiencing it. So they just put up with it until it's a serious incident of overt racist abuse, or actual sexual harassment, physical violence, and then it gets reported. We shouldn't let it get to that point.

Ryan 58:23

And we have to make people feel safer about talking about it. And also, the other side of the coin, if you've been accused of something that you you know, you also just need to own up to it or be open to discussing it and not be so reactionary and explode when someone even mentions the term of racism or sexual harassment or anything. People need to approach that differently as well

Erfan 59:10

Absolutely

Ryan 59:13

Focusing more on the workplace, I guess this is something that we definitely thought of when we heard Juju's story in particular, when you're faced with an experience of racism or any form of discrimination or harassment at work, and again I'm sure there's a million answers to this, but what would you say the best way is to address it in the first place in your workplace, and particularly if resigning or leaving a job isn't isn't safe or an option for you? What's the best way to bring it up? You know, say outside of just talking to someone from HR?

Erfan 59:56

This is heartbreaking for me. This is a heartbreaking question for me because, unfortunately, racism is so embedded in our society that there is no safe way just yet to report it in many, if not most organisations, when these incidents do occur. I have far too many stories of people who try to raise it in one way or another and, at best, you get gaslit and told you are overthinking it. Or you might get bullied, or you might get made redundant, or you might be fired all together because 'you're the troublemaker for raising the issue'. We've got to have a really honest conversation about this because there aren't, currently, safe ways in which to raise this up in most organisations. Having said that, some organisations who are proactive enough and forward thinking enough, are actually putting in place mechanisms whereby people can safely report whether it's an incident that's happened to them overtly, whether it's a less over incident. So reporting processes that allow emotional safety and psychological safety are being set up and pathways within organisations, whereas a person who has experienced racism shouldn't have to report to a person who's never experienced racism about their experience because that person doesn't actually have the lived experience and professional understanding to know what they're talking about. So having better representation in your organisations, particularly in HR and DNI, will allow for more safer avenues of being able to report this stuff. As an individual, in an organisation that you've experienced racism, if you're already unsure about how to bring that issue up, then that tells a lot to us. It means there's likely not going to be any obvious safe way to bring it up and that's what makes it so heartbreaking; which is why the work has to be done proactively and it shouldn't be left on the individual to then come up with some magical way to solve it, once it's happened. We've got to create these pathways beforehand and have a culture where people can go to a colleague that they trust, or there's a culturally safe pathway to report, and that they have the confidence that they're going to be the bare minimum heard, and not bullied out of the workplace. That's why we do the work that we do, you know, training, consulting, strategic thinking, for organisations to come up with not just putting the onus on individuals to constantly learn how to not be racist, but to come up with processes, policies and procedures that make your workplaces a safer place to be. Just like the rules of any game or sport are there to make the sport enjoyable, but the rules make it safe enough for it to be a legitimate sport. We don't have those rules yet, in our workplaces. We don't have those processes, those procedures for the incident of racism to be addressed with in a psychologically safe and appropriate and fair and just manner. And that's what we'd like to be able to do with organisations. So whether it's a school or university, a government department or corporation.

Ryan 1:03:17

And as you say, I guess we're still at such a surface level of when you enter a workplace - you shouldn't say or do certain things, but that syncing is still there, and those systems have all been set up with all that thinking that we've been talking about. So that's very fascinating, as well, that having that representation available to you, whether it's cultural, or any other form.

Erfan, you touched on how, which I think was leads on to this well, it shouldn't be up to the individual to figure out a safe way to report something and to have all the responsibility falls back on them. So then, can you expand on the emotional labour of educating other colleagues on racism, on sexism... Some listeners may have heard about it, but they might don't know that much about it, or have that lived experience?

Erfan 1:04:35

Some people have never done any emotional labour.

Together 1:04:42

[ Laughter ]

Erfan 1:04:41

I think it is very much connected to the previous question of it shouldn't be on the individual. So there are so many things I could talk about. Its about the emotional labour that's expected of non white people in workplaces to explain racism and to educate people and to help them become better allies. To put it gently, it's infuriating. It's really condescending, and patronising; and dishonest. We can work out through Google how to do anything these days. Children are teaching themselves how to create cryptocurrency coins through YouTube videos. You can learn how to become a counsellor, through an online course that you can find. You can work on how to operate on your cat, if you have to do an emergency operation, Theres literally nothing you can't learn about in this planet, and yet, in the year 2022, going into 2023 now, we still have friends, allies, neighbours, loved ones sometimes telling us, I didn't know that, can you help me understand, you know a bit about racism, 'help me be a better ally'. And I think that is really exhausting. And it just goes to show that you haven't cared enough about this at all, to learn anything. And now me the one who's being oppressed by it or discriminated because of it or traumatised by it, you want me to now teach you about it without any additional remuneration or without any exchange going on. Or even if there was, to expect that a person who has experienced racism in their entire lives is now an expert, race, equity consultant that can explain it to you and unpack it all for you is also quite absurd, you know, as to say, just because someone's experienced, you know, depression, or suffers from bipolar disorder, or has experienced anything in life, doesn't mean they're an expert on the subject matter. There are 1000s of race equity consultants, and educators and authors and documentaries out there to help us do that work. And I think anyone who's genuine in wanting to create a better world and eliminating racial prejudice from society can just as easily put it into Google as they can find a video to help them do their taxes.

Absolutely. A great place to start is going to Newkind.

Thank you. Absolutely. There's conferences all over the place we can go to and books we can read. I can send through some links so you can add it to the to the episode release of this as well.

Ryan 1:07:31

Yeah, that was going to be something I'd love to ask - your top or your favourite go to resources where people can start doing the work and educating themselves.

Edda 1:07:46

There are resources I saw on your website; videos and reading materials... So we'll make sure that your website link is in there as a great place to start. Also, you are an author, and I've actually purchased some books, which I think are going to make great interview Christmas presents. So everyone head to the kind enterprises website. We'll put the link in the in the notes. But the final question that we wanted to ask is, through this whole conversation we've been learning about the white lens, and about white power structures and unconscious bias, so we want to ask you: through the experience of this interview, have you noticed a white lens?

Erfan 1:08:54

Of course, it's not possible for them to not be there. Because everything comes through our lens. So the last question of the emotional labour of educating your fellow colleagues, the fact that that question needs to be asked means that the the answer is isn't already known. So that's coming from your lens, right?

Edda 1:09:20

Yes

Erfan 1:09:20

So everything comes through a lens!

Edda 1:09:24

For sure.

Erfan 1:09:25

So it's not like it's an obvious thing. Like, 'oh, I just noticed that there it was', the entire conversation is coming from your lens

Edda 1:09:32

Ingrained, absolutely.

Erfan 1:09:35

Just like mine is coming from, an Iranian heritage and raised-in-Australia kind of lens. Everything I say, comes through my lens. So it's not something we should be ashamed of. It's rather something we just need to acknowledge that's all it is. Once we acknowledge that, then we're like, 'Oh, okay. That's my cultural perspective'. And if White people could get used to just saying those words before they start a sentence, then we start understanding what we're talking about. Another example, really briefly of what a white lens looks like. I can't the remember the name of the study or which university it was, was one of the universities in America, an old one that everyone references, about this experiment where people were told to ask questions from these participants. And if they got it wrong, they gave them an electric shock. And if they kept getting it wrong, they turned up the voltage of the shock they gave them. And this is an experiment that some psychologists in the United States designed, and they conducted it with students from the university. And what they didn't tell the participants was that there was actually no electric shock being admitted. It was just an exercise to see how high up the voltage could go before the participant would think this is immoral, nad I can't keep doing this. And the majority of them went to a life threatening level of voltage before they would question the authority of the researcher. So this study has been used and repeated over and over again, to justify how people will listen to authority, even if it is causing harm to other people. And they've used this to justify what the Nazis did, for example, right? What we all forget to talk about is that that was a study written by a white person, about white people, conducted on white people in a testing room full of white students from a specific university. If you tried to conduct that experiment, here in Australia, with First Nations communities, or in a village in India, or in the middle of Delhi city, or in Iran, or some other part of the continent, you would have had different results. That's a white lens for you.

Edda 1:11:49

Absolutely. I'm studying psychology, this is something that comes up a lot. There's so many studies that have been done decades ago, that are just done on white people, and now they're starting to redo them and they're realising this is not universal.

Erfan 1:12:09

It's a cultural perspective. Cultures vary across time and space. So we've got to come to terms with that, and finally realise that the solutions that we need as a human family, as one race, to solve right now, the complex problems we're facing, cannot be solved through one particular cultural lens anymore. We need to have nuanced perspectives, complex reasoning skills, the ability to have a consultation that's not influenced by power or military might or economics. We can't come up with solutions to climate change and economic justice if we don't have open, safe spaces to have diplomatic conversation.

Ryan 1:12:51

And we can't keep using the same resources and referencing the same things that have been set up by all these white power structures in the first place.

Erfan 1:13:00

Exactly. Because it's not that any culture is inherently flawed. It's that any species in an ecosystem, if it becomes all powerful, begins disrupting the whole ecosystem. So we should not get hung up on shame or guilt like 'white culture is inherently this or that'. If any individual culture had colonised the entire planet, we would have had a whole host of different issues. We need to just rebalance the ecosystem just like a permaculture garden or a natural ecosystem. You just need to rebalance the ecosystem. That's all we've got to do.

Edda 1:13:36

Yes. Well, I think that is a great note to end on - the pursuit of rebalancing. Thank you so much. I have learned so much through this podcast, this episode, this interview. I've said this week, I've learned more than I've learned in probably a few months. I'm on maternity leave, and my brain doesn't get a lot of intellectual stimulation. So this has been a big week for me.

Erfan 1:14:08

Well, I'm sure you've heard enough of my voice the last year the next few months.

[Laughter]

Edda 1:14:14

Thank you so much. Erfan. It's a pleasure to get to meet you and to speak with you. And thank you for your generosity with your time and you need to just get straight back to the couch and relaxing.

Erfan 1:14:28

I've got a whole vegan pizza to go through tonight. So, thank you very much for having me.

Together 1:14:34

Thank you

Erfan 1:14:34

My pleasure.

1:14:39

♪ Work Feels Jingle ♪

Edda 1:14:43

Holy shit.

Ryan 1:14:44

Holy shit.

Edda 1:14:45

Never, ever, have I felt like such an ultimate white dickhead. That interview was incredible. I feel so privileged. I feel guilty even to take up Erfan's time. So thank you again, Erfan. Thank you for giving us your time and sharing those insights and wow, what a wealth of knowledge.

Ryan 1:15:13

The privilege is real. Hopefully, if you are white, you've also felt what that necessary discomfort is in hearing these stories and perspectives, particularly the white lens and the white worldview. It's really what you need to sit in in order to take yourself to that next place and actually take some action.

Edda 1:15:44

Once you begin to see the white lens and start to notice things in society and start to try your best to see this contact lense that sits so close to your eye, you really do start to see things that you didn't see before. It is a weird feeling, and it's a completely unnecessary feeling that I welcome deeply because there is this rebalancing that needs to occur.

Ryan 1:16:16

I think it's not necessarily relating it just to yourself as a person, but to the bigger picture. The discomfort comes from the bigger picture, not just individual behaviours. I think we have to embrace that sense of discomfort and those key themes that we spoke about: the white lens, the white worldview, or whatever the the majority worldview is, the unconscious bias, the fact that all of the systems that we operate in have all been made from white colonialism. So I thought that was just so fantastic, so revealing, so informative. Erfan is such an incredible thinker, and I can't wait to learn more and listen to more of his work as well.

1:17:26

♪ Work Feels Jingle ♪

Edda 1:17:27

Okay, team, to keep the ball rolling, we're going to jump into an interview with Juju to learn a little bit more about her story, and learn about her take on how we can rethink our approach to culture in the workplace.

Juju it is a real pleasure to get to hear your story and an even bigger pleasure to get to chat to you on the pod. For everyone who doesn't know Juju, Juju is a dear friend of Ryan and mine. We've known Juju for probably 10 years.

Ryan 1:18:05

All the way back from the Undress days.

Edda 1:18:08

That's right, joined undress 10 years ago, was a blast. Juju is a designer brand strategist and Changemaker. She studied both fashion and graphic design and went on to work for a range of fashion designers in Australia. She founded several businesses in the sustainable fashion space, including two women's wear labels, a magazine, and was also one of the key leaders to bring Undressed Runways to life. Juju, you're an inspiration to ryan and I.

Ryan 1:18:38

A design powerhouse.

Edda 1:18:40

She's amazing. A creative powerhouse. So welcome to the pod.

Juju 1:18:46

Thank you, Edda and Ryan, and thank you for the kind words.

Edda 1:18:50

So good to have you here. Juju, you can tell us a little bit about what it was like growing up in Australia and how that contributed to this experience being such a big turning point for you.

Juju 1:19:04

Yeah, it's a tough one. Well, I remember a couple experiences from very young for school. You could say my first kind of racist experiences was being with my parents in a car park. And I think there was two of those types of experiences. I don't remember exactly what was said. But I remember one of them was 'go back home to your country' or 'you don't belong here' and this was in a car park and I remember the emotions and the aggression towards my parents. I remember, just holding on to my parents and being really confused about why do they why are they getting angry at us? Or why aren't they friendly? That was from before school, I was very, very young; and that has stuck with me. I remember through school, bringing lunches to school, people just being so disgusted by what I was eating. I was eating Filipino food, which was not, you know, a Vegemite sandwich. It was rice and these 'stewie' type things. Oh, my God, I'm getting emotional.

Ryan 1:20:44

It's called Work Feels, it's the place for all emotions.

Juju 1:20:47

Yeah, I guess growing up, these things happen, and you just address it at the time, and you didn't you don't get time to reflect on those situations. In those situations, you kind of think, 'oh, okay, well, that's not accepted here', or 'that's not how they think'. So, in those situations, every time you kind of have to change what you think what you believe in, With every comment or interaction that points out your otherness is a situation where it chips away at your culture. So to some extent, every comment, you chip away part of your culture, so that you avoid having those things said to you, or having those interactions again. So, now I'm at a point where I've realised that there's this huge chunk of my culture that I've removed from my knowledge, from my way of life without me even realising it because I've had to live in a society where you've had to look a certain way and you've had to act a certain way. I thought about my daughter and I was imagining her having these things said to her, having these interactions, and I just can't have that for her. What happened at work made me realise that this is something I needed to help her with. And anyone else who's going through the same struggles shouldn't have to change what they believe in, what events they celebrate, or holidays they celebrate, just because of the place where they you choose to live in.

Ryan 1:22:05

This assimilation is really a thing of the past. You don't need to be a part of the pack. You don't need to be one of the sheep in Australia.

Juju 1:23:40

Exactly

Ryan 1:23:42

We should all be able to be exactly who we are, and celebrate all of our cultural differences.

Juju 1:23:50

Yeah, bringing your whole self to work can be daunting but I feel that's only because we're living in a system that doesn't embrace your whole self. And I think until we start, as a society, the more accepting society becomes, the more comfortable people are going to feel to bring their whole selves to work. And more and more people are doing it now. I'm definitely going to be bringing my whole self to work now and sharing this experience hasn't been an easy one for me. But I know that in sharing my story I can help give people the confidence to be able to bring their whole selves to work, school, or wherever they go.

Ryan 1:25:04

Absolutely. I was gonna say, as soon as you start doing it, it's the daunting thing of being like, 'what backlash am I going to cop from this?' But then more often than not, it is nice when you bring your whole self to work and then you kind of see a little flow on effect from that, and you see someone else being a bit more comfortable or someone else opens up about their life, their identity, their culture. Thats the beautiful outcome. It has to be a collective movement, whether it's in a workplace, in a school in a whole community. Yeah, we all just need to keep doing little bits, and it creates a huge change.

Juju 1:25:57

It also makes other people think about in their workplace 'Oh, I need to do a little bit more research on this topic'. There's so many touch points. But when you are able to accept who you are, and are then able to be your full self in whatever space you're in, it's a powerful thing.

Edda 1:26:27

Definitely. In terms of finding the courage to do that, it feels like an intimidating thing to go against the grain. Like you were in your team, you didn't necessarily have strength in numbers where you could connect with other employees that had had a similar experience and had experienced othering. But I guess when it comes to the workplace, if you can find strength in numbers, then perhaps that's a way to build that courage. You were able to just step up and just say, that's enough, and from now on I'm not standing for that anymore and I'm going forward living so aligned with my values. Which is a really brave move, particularly when you're in a workspace that isn't necessarily a safe space, to take a stand and speak out. For listeners that might be thinking, I don't feel safe in this space, perhaps it is sometimes about leaning on others, to just slowly find that strength in numbers and be able to create that change rather than doing it alone.

Juju 1:27:41

Yes, I am so lucky to be able to just step away from my job. That is a privilege that I have. And I'm lucky to be able to walk away and not necessarily have to think about the financial side of things, which a lot of people in my situation probably won't have; so they do stick it out because they need to pay bills they need to feed their families. But I do see this, me coming out sharing my story, as a way for me to start raising awareness and getting people, businesses organisations to look at how they can be more inclusive and diverse in bringing more awareness to what can be changed within the workplace.

Edda 1:28:57

For sure. In particularly if you're a business leader, or a manager in your workplace, the responsibility really sits with leadership to create safe spaces, because safety and culture comes from the top. To unlearn, and relearn and have open conversations at work is really crucial. There's a real fine line between coming to people within your workplace and saying, can you educate me? Or can you tell me how I should do this? And putting that burden on on someone who may be experiencing microaggressions. Do you think it really is a two way collaboration? Or do you think that managers should just do their homework and it shouldn't really have to be that combined effort, it should just be your job to look after my psychological safety?

Juju 1:30:00

That's a really good point. Because I've always been the one addressing these issues, it's only natural for the people to ask me: what? What do we like? What learning? How do I do this? It's really easy to put that responsibility on the person addressing it because they're the only ones with the issue, because they're the only ones that are addressing it. And you can ask for input, you can ask me questions, I completely understand that. Everyone's on a different place on the journey, so everyone's knowledge is going to be different. But, there is a difference between collaborating, and then putting responsibility on the other person.

Edda 1:37:18

And it's come to the majority person in this situation to come into the situation prepared, not just not just organise a meeting and be like, 'Oh, hey, can you come and tell me how to fix a racism problem in the office?' Or any other kind of identity or cultural sensitivity in the office, just by purely asking the person who's experiencing it to do all the work. I think people need to come very well prepared, having having done some research and be ready to have a collaborative discussion and not not just like shifting the burden on someone.

Juju 1:38:13

Also taking you outside of the equation. It's not about you. And we're not trying to question whether you're a good person or not. You kind of really need to look beyond what happened, what was said, the interaction and see what that look at the issue for what it really is, on the biggest scale.

Edda 1:38:52

And how society has contributed to the wiring of a person to only see that white perspective. Like not to say that's an excuse, we all obviously have a responsibility to unwire ourselves and unlearn if we've been raised in a white dominant society. But yeah, taking yourself out of it. And that kind of helps you also move forward and figure out okay, how do we move past this moment and do better? Yeah. On that note, Ryan and I have had really just such a privilege to be able to step into your world and your story. In terms of takeaways, if our listeners could walk away with one thing from this episode, like what what do you want people to walk away with?

Juju 1:39:41

Firstly, thank you for giving me the space to be able to share my story. It's been really amazing and a healing process for me also. In terms of what I want people to take away with, the solutions to all the problems of the world today begin with us embracing all of our differences. That involves recognising and challenging the current system we're living within. We need to incorporate and include all voices and perspectives, and have more of these types of conversations as well. Now is the time to speak up. Thtere's this indigenous organisation I've connected with in the past called SevGen, and they've taught me this indigenous saying that says that our actions of today will affect seven generations into the future. So we all have a part to play in the workplace at home, and anywhere else we go. So thank you. Absolutely.

Edda 1:40:46

Thank you so much, Juju. We love you.

Juju 1:40:50

Love you, too.

Edda 1:40:51

Before we close out the episode, we want to make sure that people know where to find you. This has been such a transformational few weeks for you and we're so excited to see what has kind of come off the back of this experience. Do you want to tell the listeners, you know where they can find you and what you're up to?

Juju 1:41:14

Yeah, from this experience, it's given me a newfound purpose. I don't think it's really new, as I've always put people on the planet at the centre of my work. But I guess the difference now is that I've been really able to identify the roots, and all of the issues that I've been trying to address in my work and really focus my energy into a specific area. So I founded Tatak, which is a Tagalog word meaning, brand, logo, trademark, and it's through Tatak that I will work with businesses on their brand. We also provide design and marketing support. But I believe the foundations of business begin with their brand, and it influences the workplace culture, their product, manufacturing, marketing, even the environment around them. And it can also shape the industry. So and we're actually now working with kind enterprises, and I'm really excited about the progress we can make in this space with our powers combined. I also founded Balik, which is another Tagalog word, meaning come back, return, going back. So this is my journey to rediscovering and reconnecting with my Filipino roots expressed through fashion design and art. I'm also on a mission to create Australia's biggest database of Filipino businesses here in Australia. I want to bring us all together and as a collective, make it easier for Australia to experience our culture, as well as educate everyone what it means to be Filipino. So if you're listening and you're a Filipino business owner, reach out and if you know of one, share it with me, I do have quite a few projects on the go at the moment. If you visit my website, Judas Marie ortiz.com, you can check out all the projects that I'm currently working

Edda 1:43:16

Amazing. You are a busy woman.

You are a superstar Juju as as you always have been, but it's so beautiful to see these incredibly authentic ventures that are fabulous.

Good luck!

Juju 1:43:34

Exciting times.

Edda 1:43:35

Yeah, definitely. All right. Thanks, Juju.

1:43:41

♪ Work Feels Jingle ♪

Edda 1:43:48

All right, team. Thanks for listening to our massive first episode. We really appreciate you coming on this journey. We've learned so so much through this process, and we really hope you have too.

If you want to learn more, we'll be putting all of Erfan and Juju's details in the show notes so you can just scroll down and click onto their profiles. We really encourage you to follow them online, engage in their brilliant work and support what they do.

If this episode raised any issues for you, or if you've experienced racism or any other form of discrimination at work, you can go to reach out Australia's website, they have a really useful step by step guide on how to approach situations, such as racism, and a few other forms of discrimination. We'll also put that link in our show notes. Erfands website also has some brilliant resources. So please go and check that out.

Finally, you can follow us at work feels pod on Instagram. You can head over to our website to learn more and share your story with us. If you have a story from the workplace, you might not be ready to articulate it or write it down or record it just yet but you think you might want to share it on the pod, you can also just send us a message and just say, 'Hey, I've got a story.' Let's find a way for you to comfortably share that with us. It can be kind of a vulnerable experience to throw your story out there and we want to make sure that it is comfortable of a process as possible. So just drop us a message and we'll go from there.

Ryan 1:45:29

Okay, team so our next episode, we are going to start our all staff email series. So in between each guest episode Edda and I will be discussing relevant workplace topics, weaving in some current news and statistics and making some wild and fun predictions on the future of work, which is one of our favourite topics.

Edda 1:45:51

But for now, thank you so much for listening. Don't forget to rate review and subscribe. Let us know if you liked the episode. Let us know if you didn't like the episode. We are all ears.

Hopefully you did really like it. You made it.

Yeah, welcome to the end.

Ryan 1:46:12

Welcome to the end.

1:46:20

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